From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:06:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD69L16964 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:06:09 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by pickering.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD5bWn029718 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:05:37 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:11 -0500 Subject: FW: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:05:38 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Eric Lease Morgan Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:53:21 -0500 To: Ed Summers , Robert Fox , Chuck Bearden , Daniel Chudnov Subject: Re: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] On 11/19/03 2:47 PM, Ed Summers wrote: >> I mentioned this to Eric and he was interested. I think Eric has some >> questions for you so he may give you a call, but he doesn't think that >> hosting it here would be a problem. Is there really a wide interest for such >> a list? I think here at Notre Dame we have myself, Eric and maybe a Cobol >> programmer (who works with our ILS) who would participate. Do you think that >> most of the perl4lib folks would be interested? > > Not sure, but I know for a fact that there are lots of people in libraries > using Java and Python. I think having a cross language language discussion > would be beneficial to the community since it's the ideas, not the language > that are important :) > > I've had this conversation with Chuck Bearden recently, a few guys at OCLC, > and Dan Chudnov in the not too remote past. The idea of code4lib is intriguing. I have managed mailing lists before, and I do not think managing another one would be too difficult. Here at Notre Dame we would call it a professional development opportunity. :-) On the other hand, are you sure there is enough demand for another mailing list? Mind you, I've been previously proven wrong about this issue. A long time ago I did not want web4lib to come to life, but there certainly is a need for that mailing list. How would code4lib compare to perl4lib, oss4lib, and/or xml4lib? -- Eric "It's My Birthday Today; I'm 43 Years Young" Morgan (574) 631-8604 ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:06:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD6SL16970 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:06:28 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD5vMI008370 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:05:57 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:30 -0500 Subject: FW: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:05:58 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Eric Lease Morgan Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:11:22 -0500 To: Subject: Re: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] On 11/19/03 2:47 PM, Ed Summers wrote: >> I mentioned this to Eric and he was interested. I think Eric has some >> questions for you so he may give you a call, but he doesn't think that >> hosting it here would be a problem. Is there really a wide interest for such >> a list? I think here at Notre Dame we have myself, Eric and maybe a Cobol >> programmer (who works with our ILS) who would participate. Do you think that >> most of the perl4lib folks would be interested? > > Not sure, but I know for a fact that there are lots of people in libraries > using Java and Python. I think having a cross language language discussion > would be beneficial to the community since it's the ideas, not the language > that are important :) > > I've had this conversation with Chuck Bearden recently, a few guys at OCLC, > and Dan Chudnov in the not too remote past. Chuck, your old email address bounced. I am sending you the message again, below. The idea of code4lib is intriguing. I have managed mailing lists before, and I do not think managing another one would be too difficult. Here at Notre Dame we would call it a professional development opportunity. :-) On the other hand, are you sure there is enough demand for another mailing list? Mind you, I've been previously proven wrong about this issue. A long time ago I did not want web4lib to come to life, but there certainly is a need for that mailing list. How would code4lib compare to perl4lib, oss4lib, and/or xml4lib? -- Eric "It's My Birthday Today; I'm 43 Years Young" Morgan (574) 631-8604 ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:06:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD6sL16978 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:06:54 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by pickering.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD6NWn000072 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:06:23 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:56 -0500 Subject: FW: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:06:24 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Eric Lease Morgan Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:52:38 -0500 To: Subject: Re: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] On 11/19/03 2:47 PM, Ed Summers wrote: >> I mentioned this to Eric and he was interested. I think Eric has some >> questions for you so he may give you a call, but he doesn't think that >> hosting it here would be a problem. Is there really a wide interest for such >> a list? I think here at Notre Dame we have myself, Eric and maybe a Cobol >> programmer (who works with our ILS) who would participate. Do you think that >> most of the perl4lib folks would be interested? > > Not sure, but I know for a fact that there are lots of people in libraries > using Java and Python. I think having a cross language language discussion > would be beneficial to the community since it's the ideas, not the language > that are important :) > > I've had this conversation with Chuck Bearden recently, a few guys at OCLC, > and Dan Chudnov in the not too remote past. Chuck, your old email address bounced. I am sending you the message again, below. The idea of code4lib is intriguing. I have managed mailing lists before, and I do not think managing another one would be too difficult. Here at Notre Dame we would call it a professional development opportunity. :-) On the other hand, are you sure there is enough demand for another mailing list? Mind you, I've been previously proven wrong about this issue. A long time ago I did not want web4lib to come to life, but there certainly is a need for that mailing list. How would code4lib compare to perl4lib, oss4lib, and/or xml4lib? -- Eric "It's My Birthday Today; I'm 43 Years Young" Morgan (574) 631-8604 ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:08:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD8BL17011 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:11 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD7dMI009053 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:07:40 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:13 -0500 Subject: FW: Red: code4lib discussion From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120163120.GB24071@ink.inkdroid.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:07:41 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Ed Summers Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:31:20 -0600 To: Eric Lease Morgan Cc: Robert Fox , Chuck Bearden , Daniel Chudnov Subject: Red: code4lib discussion First, happy birthday. Second, I changed the subject line, hope that doesn't muck up your email reader. On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 08:53:21AM -0500, Eric Lease Morgan wrote: > How would code4lib compare to perl4lib, oss4lib, and/or xml4lib? code4lib would be for *any* language, not just Perl. People could discuss non opensource software (althought they probably wouldn't want to), and conversation will not be limited to XML. It will be a discussion list for programmers, who like programming in/for libraries or dealing with information sciencey things. It might take off, it might not. If it isn't too time consuming to set up I think it's worth an experiment. I would set it up here if Follett would let me, but I've asked and they won't :( Sometimes i miss academia...actually more than sometimes. //Ed ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:08:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD8RL17018 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:27 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD7uMI009169 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:07:56 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:30 -0500 Subject: FW: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120172453.GB22385@206.180.133.11.adsl.hal-pc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:07:57 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Chuck Bearden Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:24:53 -0600 To: Eric Lease Morgan Subject: Re: [patch] Accept # as Blank Indicator [code4lib] On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 11:52:38AM -0500, Eric Lease Morgan wrote: > On 11/19/03 2:47 PM, Ed Summers wrote: > > >> I mentioned this to Eric and he was interested. I think Eric has some > >> questions for you so he may give you a call, but he doesn't think that > >> hosting it here would be a problem. Is there really a wide interest for such > >> a list? I think here at Notre Dame we have myself, Eric and maybe a Cobol > >> programmer (who works with our ILS) who would participate. Do you think that > >> most of the perl4lib folks would be interested? > > > > Not sure, but I know for a fact that there are lots of people in libraries > > using Java and Python. I think having a cross language language discussion > > would be beneficial to the community since it's the ideas, not the language > > that are important :) > > > > I've had this conversation with Chuck Bearden recently, a few guys at OCLC, > > and Dan Chudnov in the not too remote past. > > Chuck, your old email address bounced. I am sending you the message again, > below. Hi Eric, I am no longer employed at Rice. My position was "eliminated due to restructuring", which is said to be a euphemism for being laid off. I am working now at the University of Texas--Houston, School of Health Information Sciences as a systems analyst and sort of project manager. The rubric is health or medical informatics. My library training and experience does come into play here, though I will doubtless get to do things that I wouldn't get to elsewhere. Down the road there are also opportunities to collaborate with the HAM-TMC Library (the main library serving the Houston Medical Center institutions), so I won't be entirely absent from library work. I've switched pretty much to Python, though I will use PHP for web development. Eventually I would like to do some Java (perhaps with Struts). I will probably choose to use Perl only for strong reasons (need to cooperate with others on a project, or needed libraries available only in Perl). Python is a much better fit with my brain than Perl is. I continue to be involved with perl4lib because I like the folks and the projects so much. > The idea of code4lib is intriguing. > > I have managed mailing lists before, and I do not think managing another one > would be too difficult. Here at Notre Dame we would call it a professional > development opportunity. :-) That's how I thought of perl4lib when I hosted it at Rice. The library administration apparently thought it (and me) dispensible. > On the other hand, are you sure there is enough demand for another mailing > list? Mind you, I've been previously proven wrong about this issue. A long > time ago I did not want web4lib to come to life, but there certainly is a > need for that mailing list. I'm not sure there's a need. I really can't tell. A few years back, someone created a php4lib, but nothing seems to be happening there. Ed is more certain of the need for this list than I am. I would love a place to talk about other-than-Perl coding, but what if we build it and they do not come? > How would code4lib compare to perl4lib, oss4lib, and/or xml4lib? I think code4lib would be analogous to perl4lib, except that its proper domain would be programming for libraries in languages other than Perl. Xml4lib deals specifically with XML-related matters, not all of them involving programming. Oss4lib seems to me more concerned with a sort of bigger picture--project management & design, open-source news & culture in the library, implementation of already-written open-source software. The same attributes that distinguish perl4lib from the others would also distinguish code4lib from the others. > Eric "It's My Birthday Today; I'm 43 Years Young" Morgan Happy birthday! I'm 44 years young, so I guess I'm younger than you are ;-) If you make it back to Houston, let me know. We can have Vietnamese food if you like. We could also go to the range :) Chuck ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:08:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD8jL17022 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:46 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by pickering.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD8EWn000741 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:14 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:48 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120174209.GD22385@206.180.133.11.adsl.hal-pc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:15 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Chuck Bearden Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:42:09 -0600 To: Eric Lease Morgan Cc: ehs@pobox.com Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) Oops, forgot to include Eric in this reply. ----- Forwarded message from cbearden ----- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:40:56 -0600 To: Ed Summers Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 10:40:47AM -0600, Ed Summers wrote: > This thread was getting sent to your rice address. I'm trying to get > Eric at Notre Dame to set up code4lib. > > //Ed > > -- > > First, happy birthday. Second, I changed the subject line, hope that doesn't > muck up your email reader. > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 08:53:21AM -0500, Eric Lease Morgan wrote: > > How would code4lib compare to perl4lib, oss4lib, and/or xml4lib? > > code4lib would be for *any* language, not just Perl. People could discuss > non opensource software (althought they probably wouldn't want to), and > conversation will not be limited to XML. It will be a discussion list for > programmers, who like programming in/for libraries or dealing with > information sciencey things. > > It might take off, it might not. If it isn't too time consuming to set > up I think it's worth an experiment. I would set it up here if Follett would > let me, but I've asked and they won't :( Sometimes i miss academia...actually > more than sometimes. I'm fairly sure I could get permission to host it here, but I would have to do so on an Exchange server :-( Right now, I'm a Linux exile in MS-Land. I am pushing the virtues of open-source, and my supervisors are open to it, but it will take a while to make significant inroads. One of the first things I've got to do is get Linux on my desktop. What do you guys think about the signal-to-noise-ratio problem, given that some subscribers would likely be interested in only one language? I'm omnivorous, so it wouldn't bother me, but I have noted that others are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than I am. This, and questions about extent of audience, seem to me the only two real problems. I haven't seen a coding question on oss4lib in a long time, so I don't see a big problem with overlap. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. Chuck ----- End forwarded message ----- ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:09:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD9NL17036 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:23 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD8qMI009579 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:52 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:12:26 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031120134006.0228e308@pop.nd.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:53 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Robert Fox Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:43:23 -0500 To: Ed Summers , Chuck Bearden Cc: Eric Lease Morgan , dchud@umich.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) I also had a concern with the diffused approach as well, and I talked to Eric about that. If folks as specific questions about, say, a Java implementation will there be a concentration of enough interested parties to address those sorts of issues? It seems like there is a danger of either being too general or too specific. Rob At 12:01 PM 11/20/2003 -0600, Ed Summers wrote: >On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 11:42:09AM -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: > > I'm fairly sure I could get permission to host it here, but I would have > > to do so on an Exchange server :-( Right now, I'm a Linux exile in > > MS-Land. I am pushing the virtues of open-source, and my supervisors > > are open to it, but it will take a while to make significant inroads. > > One of the first things I've got to do is get Linux on my desktop. > > > > What do you guys think about the signal-to-noise-ratio problem, given > > that some subscribers would likely be interested in only one language? > > I'm omnivorous, so it wouldn't bother me, but I have noted that others > > are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than I am. This, and > > questions about extent of audience, seem to me the only two real > > problems. > > > > I haven't seen a coding question on oss4lib in a long time, so I don't > > see a big problem with overlap. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. > >We've lost Dan and Rob on this thread too now. Chuck, would you be >willing to post a message to the various groups xml4lib, oss4lib, >perl4lib, php4lib (i think there is one), maybe a lita list, to see if there >is any interest in a "programming" list that is language agnostic? > >//Ed ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:09:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD9dL17042 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:39 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD98MI009697 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:08 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:12:42 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:09 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Daniel Chudnov Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:52:51 -0500 (EST) To: Ed Summers Cc: Chuck Bearden , Eric Lease Morgan , Robert.Fox.54@nd.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Ed Summers wrote: > > I haven't seen a coding question on oss4lib in a long time, so I don't > > see a big problem with overlap. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. > > We've lost Dan and Rob on this thread too now. Chuck, would you be > willing to post a message to the various groups xml4lib, oss4lib, > perl4lib, php4lib (i think there is one), maybe a lita list, to see if there > is any interest in a "programming" list that is language agnostic? Where'd I go? :) Agreed that oss4lib has never really been about coding; the rare specific questions on the topic have been for lack of a better home, and usually redirected to a better home once the posters were informed (iirc usually to perl4lib). Like web4lib and the lang4libs, oss4lib and the lang4libs are mostly orthogonal, no? This idea seems to come around once a year or so... it's always a hard call, as some folks are probably happy with the way certain lists are focused as-is. All I can say is that if somebody started a pan-language code4lib I would want to join, even if the topics wavered inconsistently on granularity and such. The occasional "how can I get perl to interpolate $@#_{[]} as a footype" is well worth the wading through for me, not knowing, to get to the also occasional higher-level "if i'm parsing marc with a stream-based approach, would you put this callback here or there", etc., question or the rarer lower-level question in a language on my radar. That said, I wouldn't start/own it myself, but would happily be a backup listadmin if needed. Also, btw, I would ask for restraint before cross-posting a potentially flamewar-inspiring question -- however pertinent and well-meaning! -- to multiple lists with inconsistent overlap. :) One alternative might be to invite members of various lists to participate in a discussion somewhere else... /u/l/i might be a neutral option, say, along with others, but really, anyone's weblog + comments would probably do just fine. Dunno if these comments are helpful, esp. as I fell into this thread mid-conversation, but, well, here you go. Regards, -dchud ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:09:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALD9uL17047 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:56 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD9OMI009826 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:24 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:12:58 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120201204.GC24205@ink.inkdroid.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:09:25 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Ed Summers Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:12:05 -0600 To: Daniel Chudnov Cc: Chuck Bearden , Eric Lease Morgan , Robert.Fox.54@nd.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 02:52:51PM -0500, Daniel Chudnov wrote: > Also, btw, I would ask for restraint before cross-posting a potentially > flamewar-inspiring question -- however pertinent and well-meaning! -- to > multiple lists with inconsistent overlap. :) One alternative might be to > invite members of various lists to participate in a discussion somewhere > else... /u/l/i might be a neutral option, say, along with others, but > really, anyone's weblog + comments would probably do just fine. Yeah, perhaps the best thing to do is just start it, announce it, and see if anyone comes. One thing I don't miss about academia is the incessant debate, and not enough action. //Ed ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:10:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDAhL17057 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:43 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALDABMI010130 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:12 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:13:45 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120211459.GA23108@206.180.133.11.adsl.hal-pc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:12 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Chuck Bearden Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:14:59 -0600 To: Ed Summers Cc: Daniel Chudnov , Eric Lease Morgan , Robert.Fox.54@nd.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 02:12:05PM -0600, Ed Summers wrote: > On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 02:52:51PM -0500, Daniel Chudnov wrote: > > Also, btw, I would ask for restraint before cross-posting a potentially > > flamewar-inspiring question -- however pertinent and well-meaning! -- to > > multiple lists with inconsistent overlap. :) One alternative might be to > > invite members of various lists to participate in a discussion somewhere > > else... /u/l/i might be a neutral option, say, along with others, but > > really, anyone's weblog + comments would probably do just fine. > > Yeah, perhaps the best thing to do is just start it, announce it, and see > if anyone comes. One thing I don't miss about academia is the incessant > debate, and not enough action. Ed I'm afraid I must take issue with your last remark. As someone currently working in "academia", I can't say I agree. And I feel we must resolve this issue before we can move forward. Chuck (from somewhere in Academentia) ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:10:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDAxL17064 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:59 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by pickering.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALDARWn001605 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:28 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:14:01 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120212347.GB23108@206.180.133.11.adsl.hal-pc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:28 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Chuck Bearden Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:23:47 -0600 To: Ed Summers Cc: Daniel Chudnov , Eric Lease Morgan , Robert.Fox.54@nd.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 02:12:05PM -0600, Ed Summers wrote: > On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 02:52:51PM -0500, Daniel Chudnov wrote: > > Also, btw, I would ask for restraint before cross-posting a potentially > > flamewar-inspiring question -- however pertinent and well-meaning! -- to > > multiple lists with inconsistent overlap. :) One alternative might be to > > invite members of various lists to participate in a discussion somewhere > > else... /u/l/i might be a neutral option, say, along with others, but > > really, anyone's weblog + comments would probably do just fine. > > Yeah, perhaps the best thing to do is just start it, announce it, and see > if anyone comes. One thing I don't miss about academia is the incessant > debate, and not enough action. Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously, I was thinking that code4lib would be for non-Perl discussions (though discussion of Perl as a possible solution to a coding problem should be allowed). Perl4lib already provides an excellent venue for Perl-related discussions, and I wouldn't want to siphon off any of its lovely "wort" (you'll know the term if you brew beer). An idea floated in the past on this held that language-specific lists could be spun off as warranted by traffic. My notion was that code4lib would be a catch-all for discussions having no better home on other lists. I do like Dan's suggestion that discussions likely to start protracted debates be steered to a blog-like venue. Possibly the function of a designated moderator to suggest that possibility (and the venue?) when the threshhold is reached? Chuck ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:11:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDBHL17070 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:17 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALDAkMI010376 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:46 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:14:20 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120213007.GF24205@ink.inkdroid.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:10:47 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Ed Summers Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:30:07 -0600 To: Chuck Bearden Cc: Daniel Chudnov , Eric Lease Morgan , Robert.Fox.54@nd.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 03:14:59PM -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: > Ed I'm afraid I must take issue with your last remark. As someone > currently working in "academia", I can't say I agree. And I feel we > must resolve this issue before we can move forward. > > Chuck > (from somewhere in Academentia) Hah! You are a subtle one Mr. Bearden. The perfect moderator :) //Ed ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:11:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDBaL17076 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:36 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALDB5MI010482 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:05 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:14:39 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120213332.GC23108@206.180.133.11.adsl.hal-pc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:06 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Chuck Bearden Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:33:32 -0600 To: Robert Fox Cc: Ed Summers , Eric Lease Morgan , dchud@umich.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:43:23PM -0500, Robert Fox wrote: > I also had a concern with the diffused approach as well, and I talked to > Eric about that. If folks as specific questions about, say, a Java > implementation will there be a concentration of enough interested parties > to address those sorts of issues? It seems like there is a danger of either > being too general or too specific. As my third-level quote below indicates, I've worried about this issue as well. My hunch is that both Python and Java would find at least some takers. PHP probably would as well, but there is already a php4lib list (though it seems long dormant). I'm leaning towards the notion that it is worth trying. If it doesn't seem to work out, we can declare it an experiment and shut it down. Does that sound reasonable? Chuck > Rob > > At 12:01 PM 11/20/2003 -0600, Ed Summers wrote: > >On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 11:42:09AM -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: > >> I'm fairly sure I could get permission to host it here, but I would have > >> to do so on an Exchange server :-( Right now, I'm a Linux exile in > >> MS-Land. I am pushing the virtues of open-source, and my supervisors > >> are open to it, but it will take a while to make significant inroads. > >> One of the first things I've got to do is get Linux on my desktop. > >> > >> What do you guys think about the signal-to-noise-ratio problem, given > >> that some subscribers would likely be interested in only one language? > >> I'm omnivorous, so it wouldn't bother me, but I have noted that others > >> are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than I am. This, and > >> questions about extent of audience, seem to me the only two real > >> problems. > >> > >> I haven't seen a coding question on oss4lib in a long time, so I don't > >> see a big problem with overlap. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. > > > >We've lost Dan and Rob on this thread too now. Chuck, would you be > >willing to post a message to the various groups xml4lib, oss4lib, > >perl4lib, php4lib (i think there is one), maybe a lita list, to see if > >there > >is any interest in a "programming" list that is language agnostic? > > > >//Ed > ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:12:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDBtL17082 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:55 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALDBOMI010630 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:24 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:14:58 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031120170817.0224f298@pop.nd.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:11:25 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: RO ------ Forwarded Message From: Robert Fox Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:09:50 -0500 To: Chuck Bearden Cc: Ed Summers , Eric Lease Morgan , dchud@umich.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) This sounds great to me. I think Eric and I would be willing to host it here at ND, but Eric would need to confirm that. Rob At 03:33 PM 11/20/2003 -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: >On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:43:23PM -0500, Robert Fox wrote: > > I also had a concern with the diffused approach as well, and I talked to > > Eric about that. If folks as specific questions about, say, a Java > > implementation will there be a concentration of enough interested parties > > to address those sorts of issues? It seems like there is a danger of > either > > being too general or too specific. > >As my third-level quote below indicates, I've worried about this >issue as well. My hunch is that both Python and Java would find >at least some takers. PHP probably would as well, but there is >already a php4lib list (though it seems long dormant). > >I'm leaning towards the notion that it is worth trying. If it doesn't >seem to work out, we can declare it an experiment and shut it down. > >Does that sound reasonable? > >Chuck > > > Rob > > > > At 12:01 PM 11/20/2003 -0600, Ed Summers wrote: > > >On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 11:42:09AM -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: > > >> I'm fairly sure I could get permission to host it here, but I would have > > >> to do so on an Exchange server :-( Right now, I'm a Linux exile in > > >> MS-Land. I am pushing the virtues of open-source, and my supervisors > > >> are open to it, but it will take a while to make significant inroads. > > >> One of the first things I've got to do is get Linux on my desktop. > > >> > > >> What do you guys think about the signal-to-noise-ratio problem, given > > >> that some subscribers would likely be interested in only one language? > > >> I'm omnivorous, so it wouldn't bother me, but I have noted that others > > >> are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than I am. This, and > > >> questions about extent of audience, seem to me the only two real > > >> problems. > > >> > > >> I haven't seen a coding question on oss4lib in a long time, so I don't > > >> see a big problem with overlap. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. > > > > > >We've lost Dan and Rob on this thread too now. Chuck, would you be > > >willing to post a message to the various groups xml4lib, oss4lib, > > >perl4lib, php4lib (i think there is one), maybe a lita list, to see if > > >there > > >is any interest in a "programming" list that is language agnostic? > > > > > >//Ed > > ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:12:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from osgood.cc.nd.edu (osgood.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.227]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDCmL17095 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:12:48 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by osgood.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALD8WMI009414 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:32 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:12:06 -0500 Subject: FW: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20031120180133.GB24205@ink.inkdroid.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:08:33 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: R ------ Forwarded Message From: Ed Summers Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:01:33 -0600 To: Chuck Bearden Cc: Eric Lease Morgan , dchud@umich.edu, Robert.Fox.54@nd.edu Subject: Re: [ehs@pobox.com: Red: code4lib discussion] (fwd) On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 11:42:09AM -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: > I'm fairly sure I could get permission to host it here, but I would have > to do so on an Exchange server :-( Right now, I'm a Linux exile in > MS-Land. I am pushing the virtues of open-source, and my supervisors > are open to it, but it will take a while to make significant inroads. > One of the first things I've got to do is get Linux on my desktop. > > What do you guys think about the signal-to-noise-ratio problem, given > that some subscribers would likely be interested in only one language? > I'm omnivorous, so it wouldn't bother me, but I have noted that others > are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than I am. This, and > questions about extent of audience, seem to me the only two real > problems. > > I haven't seen a coding question on oss4lib in a long time, so I don't > see a big problem with overlap. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. We've lost Dan and Rob on this thread too now. Chuck, would you be willing to post a message to the various groups xml4lib, oss4lib, perl4lib, php4lib (i think there is one), maybe a lita list, to see if there is any interest in a "programming" list that is language agnostic? //Ed ------ End of Forwarded Message From emorgan@nd.edu Fri Nov 21 08:37:15 2003 Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by dewey.library.nd.edu (8.11.6/8.8.7) with ESMTP id hALDbFL21177 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:37:15 -0500 Received: from [129.74.6.196] (bliss-mobile.library.nd.edu [129.74.6.196]) by pickering.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.3/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id hALDahWn014308; Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:36:43 -0500 (EST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.0.2006 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:40:17 -0500 Subject: code4lib From: Eric Lease Morgan To: Robert Fox , Chuck Bearden CC: Ed Summers , , Mr Serials Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20031120170817.0224f298@pop.nd.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:36:44 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.2.40; dat v4305 Status: R On 11/20/03 5:09 PM, Robert Fox wrote: > This sounds great to me. I think Eric and I would be willing to host it > here at ND, but Eric would need to confirm that. > > At 03:33 PM 11/20/2003 -0600, Chuck Bearden wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 01:43:23PM -0500, Robert Fox wrote: I also had a >> concern with the diffused approach as well, and I talked to Eric about that. >> If folks as specific questions about, say, a Java implementation will there >> be a concentration of enough interested parties to address those sorts of >> issues? It seems like there is a danger of either being too general or too >> specific. >> >> As my third-level quote below indicates, I've worried about this issue as >> well. My hunch is that both Python and Java would find at least some takers. >> PHP probably would as well, but there is already a php4lib list (though it >> seems long dormant). >> >> I'm leaning towards the notion that it is worth trying. If it doesn't seem >> to work out, we can declare it an experiment and shut it down. >> >> Does that sound reasonable? Let's go for it. Here at ND we will instigate a code4lib mailing list. Initially Rob and I will be moderators. We'll give it a try for eighteen (18) months, and after that time if there does not seem to be enough interest to keep the whole thing alive, then we will shut it down. This is no real skin off our backs. We'll call it a "professional development opportunity", and it may very will fill a useful purpose as well as fill a void. Let me set things up. It usually takes a day or two. -- Eric "Not My Birthday Anymore" Morgan